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 Pergjigjjje ne tema historike

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MesazhTitulli: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:02 pm

Originally posted by Geo

Claudius Ptolemaeus mentions one city named 'Albanopolis' in 2nd cent.ad, but it's location is undefined.
--------------------

Actually, it's location is defined by various scholars as Zgërdhesh, a village near Kruja.



But, an unknown source suggest that Arboria is to be found somewhere in Epirus.


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:08 pm

Originally posted by geo

From where Albanians came (Alba longa or Caucasus) and if they are autochthonous (who changed their name for some reason) it is yet another mystery.

The possibility of any arrival of Albanians from Caucasus is rejected a long time before.


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:15 pm

Originally posted by kostas 68

And what does it prove ?That Yanina was an Albanian city with the majority of the inhabitants being Albanians in 1880?
--------------------------
What's the surprise kostas?

Originally posted by kostas68

However the majority of the population was clearly Greek.Watch what George Finlay wrote about the regions of the Ottoman empire where the Greek populations were the majority:
---------------------------------------------------------
I am asking myself why George Finlay puts in first part of his book a map like this



From the book “History of the Greek Revolution” Volume 1, by George Finlay, 1861.

I'll present here a plenty of maps showing Epirus within Albania. The southern boundaries of Albania are near Livadia.


























I think is enough! But if these maps are insufficient to change your mind, I can other maps as much I want.

See ya

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:39 pm

Originally posted by EfialtStoDromMeTsPiperies

I realize that having the Nth Albanian come in here and claim that he is a "descendant of Pelasgians" (while mistaking "cognate" for "origin", copy-pasting 19th century philologists and even the infamous priest Jacques

The Pelasgian origin isn't discovered by the Albanians or Nth Albanians as you said. On the contrary, this theory took place for the first time in Greece itself.
The "Pelasgian" view was fashionable in Greece in the 19th century and was then applied to Albanians in general. It was used to claim autochthonous status and hence historical affinity with the Greek nation, since at that time Greeks wished to win the Albanians over for the formation of a common Greater Greek nation state (Gounaris 2006). Other Greek authors have proposed an ancient Greek identity of the settlers based on their supposed Epirote ancestry.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:52 pm

Originally posted by kostas68

This proves once more your ignorrance.Had you ever bothered yourself to learn ancient Greek so that you are able to study the subjects you are talking about in their original text,you would know that there doesn't exist in ancient Greek any name "Ajax".Ancient Greeks pronnunced it "Aias",while "Ajax" is the latinized form of the name:
-----------------------------------------------------

On the contrary, thinking that Aias is the originally name of Homeric 'Ajax' (!!!) proves once more your ignorance. You call the local football club of the island of Salamis (named 'Aias') as certain proof for 'Greek' etymology of 'Ajax'???

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:56 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:47 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Does anyone here see any mention of Illyria? Or Albanians?
-------------------------------------

Wait a second here...Was you who said:

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

It looks as if most modern linguists are now leaning more and more towards a Thracian origin of the Albanian language..
-------------------------------
Buddy all what are you doing is called Deep Contradiction because at the same time you:
-Affirm the Thracian origin of the Albanians
-Denying the Pelasgian ancestry of the Albanians

Do you realize how paradoxical you are?



So, the Pelasgians peopled also the lands which traditionally we called as Thrace. If so, then you blocked your ways of denying Pelasgian ancestry of the Albanians.

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

How in the world can you prove that the Albanians are Pelasgians when you cannot even prove linguistically that Albanians are Illyrians?
----------------------------
Nice crap...but let's me ask the opposite of the question:
How in the world can you prove that the Modern Greeks are ancient ones, when you cannot even prove linguistically that Greeks are ancient Greeks?

Originally posted

So much so that the remaining communities of Pelasgians in Classical Greece were essentially Greek themselves....

-------------------------------
Oh my God...you are trying to be more smart than Herodotos.

“What language however the Pelasgians used to speak I am not able with certainty to say. But one must pronounce judging by those that still remain of the Pelasgians who dwelt in the city of Creston above the Tyrsenians, and who were once neighbors of the race now called Dorian, dwelling then in the land which is now called Thessaliotis, and also by those that remain of the Pelasgians that who settled at Plakia and Skylakē in the region of the Hellespont, who before that had been settlers with the Athenians, and of the natives of the various other towns which are really Pelasgian, though they have lost the name. If one must pronounce judging by these, the Pelasgians used to speak a Barbarian language. If therefore all the Pelasgian race was such as these, then the Attic race, being Pelasgian, at the same time changed and became Hellenic, unlearnt also its language. For the people of Creston do not speak the same language with any of those who dwell about them, nor yet do the people of Plakia, but they speak the same language as each other. By this it is proved that they still keep unchanged the form of language which they brought with them when they migrated to these places”.


Now decide if 'remaining communities of Pelasgians in Classical Greece were essentially Greek themselves....'???

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn View Post
A History of Greece:
From the Earliest Times to the Roman Conquest, with Supplementary Chapters ..
by Sir William Smith - 1855 p.12-13

Landmarks of the history of Greece 1856

The Religions Before Christ: Being an Introduction to the
History of the First Three Centuries ...1862

`History of Classical Literature
By Robert William Browne 1851

The Gentile Nations: Or, the History and Religion of the
Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians ...1853

A History of Greece:
From the Earliest Times to the Roman Conquest, with Supplementary Chapters .1863

Originally posted by Andrew

No surprize that our current funny guy AgrS ... considers the for more than 30 years outdated 30s-40s "Thraco-Illyrian" theory as "Up-to-Date" in 2009

Originally posted by EfialtStoDromMeTsPiperies

I realize that having the Nth Albanian come in here and claim that he is a "descendant of Pelasgians" (while mistaking "cognate" for "origin", copy-pasting 19th century philologists and even the infamous priest Jacques
------------------------------------------------------
Once a time the mainstream of your 'criticism' was that Albanians 'copy-pasted outdated scholars, wasn't? It is trully funny when our 'Critics' for their own agenda use widely 19 century scholars!

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:12 pm

XXXII. 1. Pelasgians in Hem peninsula.



The Pelasgians, the extended people of the ancient world, had ruled in ante-historical times not only over Hellada, but over the entire Hem peninsula. We shall summarize here the various data regarding this which we find with the Greek authors.

Thessaly, the most fertile and beautiful territory of ancient Greece, situated between Olympus, Ossa, Pelion and Pindus mountains, had once bore the name Pelasgicon Argos (Homer, Iliad, II. v. 681; Strabo, Geogr. VIII. 6. 5), Pelasgicon pedion (Strabo, Geogr. Ix. 5. 22), meaning the plain of the Pelasgians, and Pelasgia (Hecateus, Fragm. 334, in Fragm Hist. graec. I. Ed. Didot, p. 25; Ibid, vol. IV. P. 501; Eustathius, Comm. In Dionysium v. 427).

The Epirus, Pyrrhus’ country, a region with deep valleys, wild and partly fertile, had once been inhabited by the Pelasgians (Strabo, lib. V. 2. 4). Here was Dodona, religious metropolis of the Pelasgians in the Homeric epoch (Strabo, lib. VII. 7. 10), where the supreme divinity who governed the sky and the earth was venerated under the national name of “Jove of the Pelasgians”, Zeus Pelasgikos (Homer, Iliad, XVI. 233).

The entire Peloponessus, a country covered in vast woodlands, crisscrossed by numerous rivers and streams, with very favorable conditions for a pastoral life, had been called in antiquity Pelasgia, as the historians Acusilaus (fragm 11, Frag. Hist. graec. I. p. 101), and Ephorus (fragm. 54, ibid. p. 248; Pliny, lib. IV. 5. 1) tell us.

Arcadia, a region surrounded by mountains and inhabited by a pastoral people with simple and patriarchal mores, had once the name “Pelasgia” (Steph. Byz. ‘Arkadia; Herodotus, lib.I. 146).

Argos, the kingdom of Agamemnon, famous for its cities Mycenae and Tirynth, where have been discovered in our time priceless treasures of a buried Pelasgian civilization, had also been a country of the Pelasgians. Argos is given the name Pelasgia by Eschyl (Prom. v. 860), Euripides (Orestes, v. 675, 849, 1611; Iphig. in Aulida, v. 1494; Erakles mainomenos, v. 462), Eustathius (Comm. In Dionysium, 347), and Strabo (lib. VIII. 6. 9).

Beotia also, a country rich in sheep flocks and herds of cattle and horses, with the famous Parnassus and Helicon mountains, with their fine valleys dedicated to the divinities, had been inhabited in ancient times by Pelasgians (Strabo, lib. IX. 2. 25; Ibid. IX. 2. 3).

The same happened with Attica, a simple agricultural province, which appears at the beginning of its history as a region inhabited by Pelasgians (Herodotus, lib. I. c. 57; Ibid. IX. 2. 3).

Athens, the center of intellectual and political life of ancient Greece, had been founded by Pelasgians. During the time of the rule of the Pelasgians over Greece, writes Herodotus, the Athenians had been Pelasgian (lib. VIII. 24). The strong wall which once surrounded the acropolis of Athens had been built by Pelasgians, Pelasgikon teichos (Herodotus, lib.V.64; Fragm Hist. grace. II. 111. 17; IV. 457. 3). Even in the times of the Roman Empire a part of the city of Athens was called Palasgicon (Strabo, lib. IX. 2. 3; Ibid. V. 2. 3; V. 2. Cool.

The entire Macedonia, a country with great political ideals and ruler of the world in the times of Alexander the Great, had had in ancient times a Pelasgian population (Justinus, lib. VII. 1. 1).

Macedo, the national patriarch of Macedonia, appears in the ancient genealogy of the peoples from the Hem peninsula, as a descendant of Pelasg (Apollodorus, Bibl. lib. III. 8. 1). Herodotus also writes that the Pelasgians who dwelt in the region of Pindus were called Macedoni (lib.I. 56).

The ancient populations of Illyria were of the same nationality as the Macedonians (Appianus, Bell. Mithr. 55). The various tribes of this region, Liburnii, Dalmatii, Iapozii, Dindarii, Brygii, Byllionii, Taulantii, Dasaretii, Ardieii, Dardanii, etc, had Pelasgian names, mores and traditions.

The so-called “barbara” Illyria was called Illyris Romana even since the time of Augustus.

Finally, the entire territory of Thrace, which in a remote antiquity comprised also the populations from the north of the Lower Danube, had also been a Pelasgian country.

The Trojans and Mysians, Herodotus tells us, had undertaken in prehistoric times a great expedition into Europe, and had subjected the entire Thrace to the Ionic Sea (lib. VII. 20). This proves that the Thracians were at one time of the same ethnic nationality as the Pelasgians from Asia Minor [1].



[1. Some traces of the ancient Pelasgians were mentioned in later times in Athos peninsula (Herodotus, I. 57; Strabo, VII. 35; Thucydides, IV. 109). Scymnus of Chios (Orb. Descr. V. 585) also speaks about the Pelasgiotii emigrated from Thrace to the islands Scyros and Schiathos. Strabo (XIII. 1. 31) states on another hand that the Thracians and Trojans had many names in common. The Mysiens (Mysoi) who had emigrated from Thrace to Asia Minor had the same origin and language with the Moesi or Mysii from between the Danube and the Hem (Strabo, XII. 3. 3; VII. 3. 2; XIII. 1. Cool].



Finally, the poet Eschyl presents the following picture of the expansion of Pelasgian domination in the south-eastern parts of Europe.

King Pelasg of Argos says the following to Danaos: “I am Pelasg …..king of this country. The nation of the Pelasgians, so rightly called after me, their king, occupies this country. I rule over the entire earth, from which the river Algos (Altos?) flows down, and Strymon, which flows from where the sun sets. Inside the borders of my empire there is also the country of the Perrhebi (north of Thessaly) and the lands from beyond Pindus, near the Paeoni and the mountains of Dodona (Epirus). It is true that the sea breaks off the borders of my country, but my rule also extends beyond the sea, and the name of that country is Apia (Suppl. v. 250).

The important river about which Pelasg speaks here, which flew from the end of the world, where the sun sets, which turned to ice during winter (Eschyl, Persaeus, v. 497) and which was in the region from where the cold winds blew (Eschyl, Agamemnon, v. 192), is in no way Strymon of Thrace, but the famous Istru of Europe (Pindar, Olymp. III.18).

The great rivers, especially the holy Istru (to which Alexander the Great also brings sacrifices) served in the official rhetoric of the ancient times, to describe the size, power and durability of an empire. The ancient kings, as Dinonus tells us (fragm. 16 in Fragm Hist. gr. II. 92), ordered to have water brought from Istru or Nile, which they preserved in their treasury, in order to prove the size of their empires, and their power over all. This is what Pelasg wants to express, and this is the true meaning of the tradition transmitted by Eschyl.

http://www.pelasgians.bigpondhosting.com/website5/32_01.htm




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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 pm

Modern writers have either been content to restate or amplify the view, ascribed above to Ephorus, that "Pelasgian" simply means "prehistoric Greek," or have used the name Pelasgian at their pleasure to denote some one element in the mixed population of the Aegean - Thracian, Illyrian (Albanian) or Semitic.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:45 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Finlay clearly states that the Pashlik of Janina was majority Greek, and Greek speaking.......
---------------------------------------------------

Where did exactly stated that the Pashlik of Janina was majority Greek...??? You mean this:

Southern Albania formed a pashalik, which took its name from its capital, the city of Joannina. It had been long governed by Ali Pasha, who had annexed the greater part of Thessaly and all Western Greece, except Naupaktos, to his pashalik.

There is no mention of Greek majority in Epirus or as Finlay rightly called Southern Albania. At least, Finlay afford no evidence providing the majority of Greeks in Epirus!!!!!

A confusion of ideas has been produced by not distinguishing clearly between Greek orthodoxy and Greek nationality. The ancient Greeks paid great attention to purity of race; the modern Greeks have transferred their care to purity of doctrine. The Messenians preserved their manners and their dialect unchanged during centuries of exile; the Moreats have kept their orthodoxy untainted during ages of foreign domination. At present the Greeks are willing to intermarry with Vallachians, Russians, and Albanians of the Eastern Church ; but to render a marriage lawful with a Catholic of the purest Hellenic descent, it would be necessary to rebaptise the spouse.

The tendency to forget everything but orthodoxy was cherished by the political privileges which the sultans had conferred on the Greek Church. Its adherents formed a great community in the Othoman ' empire, known to the Turks by the national designation of Roum. The immense orthodox population of European Turkey and Asia Minor, embracing many nationalities, was confounded with the small number of the Greek race. Yet these two bodies were composed of heterogeneous elements, influenced by divergent interests and feelings, and to whose political union geography, language, and manners presented Retrospect. an almost insurmountable barrier. Even among thej Greeks, though the people confounded orthodoxy and nationality, it was only the priests and the learned class who looked forward to a restoration of the Byzantine empire, and to the establishment of the Greeks as a dominant race, by rendering political power a consequence of ecclesiastical authority. They alone de-| luded themselves with the dream that the Albanians,, the Servians, the Bulgarians, and the Vallachians would submit to be ruled by Greek sovereigns and prefects,, because they prayed under the guidance of Greek patriarchs and bishops.

The sultan recognised the patriarch of Constantinople as the ecclesiastical chief of all the orthodox Christians in European Turkey, and supported him in the exercise of an extensive civil jurisdiction over several nations. Among these, the Greeks really occu-i pied the position of a dominant race. To the Vallachian and the Bulgarian, the Greek was in some degree what the Turk was to the Greek. The Greek language was the language of the church and the law which ruled the whole assemblage of nations called by the Othoman administration, Roum meleti, or Roman nation. Indeed, the power and jurisdiction of the patriarch and synod of Constantinople, as it existed under the Othoman sultans, was an institution remodelled by Mohammed II.; and had the Othoman government found either Vallachians or Bulgarians fitter instruments to govern the orthodox community in accordance with Othoman interests, the patriarchs and the members of the synod of Constantinople would in all probability have ceased to be Greeks.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:35 pm

“The Thracians, who occur in Phocis, and are mentioned among the barbarous inhabitants of Beotia, the possession of which they are said to have shared with the Pelasgians, were likewise a branch of the Pelasgian race; and the relationship between them and the Pierians, in the north of Greece, is well asttested.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:35 pm

Originally posted by kostas68

that Finlay claims Greeks were the majority in Epirus
-------------------------------------------

kostas68 I said that Finlay explicitly does not mention nowhere about the Greek majority in Epirus. Have a look on this passage:

Southern Albania formed a pashalik, which took its name from its capital, the city of Joannina. It had been long governed by Ali Pasha, who had annexed the greater part of Thessaly and all Western Greece, except Naupaktos, to his pashalik.

originally posted by kostas68
Yeah,according to some archaeologists of 1850!!!Give me a break!!!!Do you mean the same scholars who called the Croats and Serbs Illyrians?
--------------------------
What's your point here? That Albanians are like Croats and Serbs... It's true that some 19century scholars called Serbo-Croats as Illyrians. But most of scholars claim such absurdities were Slavs because as A.Stipcevic says:

It was the Croats who before anyone else put forward the claim of being descended from the glorious Illyrian people, to the point of identifying themselves with them and giving themselves the name of Illyrians. For centuries, the Croatian language was simply called Illyrian. It is thought that Vinko Pribojevic (Vincentius Priboevius) in the 16th century was the first to include the history of the Illyrians in what might be called a political program. Pribojevic idea; countering the ideology and threat of pan-Germanism, hi used the splendid history of the Illyrians in order to demonstrate a cultural and especially historical superiority to the GERMANS, Italians, and Hungarians.

So, the so-called Illyrian origin of the Slavs was born as a reaction against Pan-Germanism which tended to assimilate Slavic peoples. That's all.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:50 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Do you see any Pelasgians in what is now Albania??
----------------------------------------------------------------

Dodona was in Albania, wasn't?

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Pelasgians and Thracians were two different peoples.
----------------------------------------------------------
"The Thracians, who occur in Phocis, and are mentioned among the barbarous inhabitants of Beotia, the possession of which they are said to have shared with the Pelasgians, were likewise a branch of the Pelasgian race; and the relationship between them and the Pierians, in the north of Greece, is well asttested".

“The Pelasgians of the Aegean Sea, who occupied the Northern or Thracian coast, were necessarily in connexion with Thracians. It appears also that the two races lived intermingled with each other. (...)The other tribes with whom the Pelasgians were intermingled, were of Thracian origin, such as the Bisaltae and Edonse".

“The Pelasgians mentioned in this line are the inhabitants of Larissa, a town of Thrace, built by such of the Pelasgi as were driven from Thessaly. Homer enumerates them among the other Thracian allies of Priam”

Bulgarian linguist Georgiev claims that the Pelasgians were Indo-Europeans and related to the neighbouring Thracians.


See also:

1. We, the Thracians, and our multimillenary history‎
2. Ancient gold: the wealth of the Thracians

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:07 pm

Dua te te bej me dije. qe greqishtja e vjeter mesohet ne shkolla ne Greqi, dhe ata kane njehuri per te per kete arsye, pervec fjaleve te perbashketa qe i kane sepse kane adoptuar si gjuhe te tyre nje variant te saj.
Megjithate beji nje pyetje, thuaji te perktheje kete tekst:

Linguistically I CAN READ AND UNDERSTAND ANCIENT GREEK. Much more so than I could understand Shakespearean English which is not even half as old

lINGUISTICALLY you can read and understand ancient Greek because you learned ancient Greek in curriculum of primary and secondary school...as we know in Greece is a specific subject at school 'The Ancient Greek', isn't?

But, to test your understanding of ancient Greek, I would present a text if you are able to translate:


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:15 am

Originally posted by geo

And at last, give back some answers! You are beginning to act like a skopjan.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
geo I've responded to you but the response is not approved yet. This damned 'filter' does not allow me to give quickly my answers.

Firstly, I want to know what is this 'act like a skopjan'?
Secondly, what do you mean with 'skopian'? To whom you are refer as 'skopian'?

This notion is wrongly used by Greeks to call the Slavo-Bulgarians of FyrMacedonia. 'Skopian' mean inhabitants of Shkup (ancient Scup, the capital of Dardania; later of Vilayet of Kosova). The city of Shkup (not in Bulgarian/Serbian pronounce as Skopje) is inhabited largely by the Albanians. So, I am very sensitive when Greeks misunderstand the meaning of 'Shkupjan'. The demonym 'Shkupjan' mean Albanian inhabitant of Shkup. 'Shkupjan' has nothing in share with Bulgarian, Serbian or whatsoever slavic people.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:21 am

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Do you see any Pelasgians in what is now Albania??
-------------------------------------

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Why were the Pelasgians NEVER mentioned in what is known as being Albanian speaking lands??
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You must be incurable imbecile since you make such amateurish questions! At least, this simply proves your fully ignorance.



Do you know the geographical location of old Chaonia?


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:45 am

originally posted by chiacagogeorge

Albanian has ZERO to do with Pelasgian.
---------------------------

I don't care what you think about Pelasgian continuity on modern Albanians. Your 'argument' that Pelasgians never lived in today what is Albania is simply dropped out (because Chaonians -Epirotic tribe peopled the most of southern Albania). For the sake of your argument let's suppose that Pelasgians never inhabited in today's Albania. Let's make an 'incorrect' comparison:

Some Croatian nationalist theoreticians have opted to adopt the theory linking their origins to Iran.

“Croats as Hrvati, Haravaitii, Arachosians or Saravatians, descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the Harauti province& the Haraviti or Sarasvati river. Their mention on legendary inscriptions of Darius the Great. Croatian flag based on the chessboard, Croatian religion derived from primordial Iranic Sun-worship.
The science of linguistics provides several connections with Iran. Thus, the Croats of Croatia call themselves ‘Hrvati’ and their country ‘Hrvatska’, whence the Croatian domain name on the internet is .hr. The name ‘Hrvati’ is derived from the Avestan province ‘Harahvaiti (Greek: Archosia). The scientific philological argument for the identification of the Croats with the Haravatis is given in (Sakac 1995, pp.33-36,,; Sakax 1949, 1937)

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

The Iranian theory suggests that the Croats are a tribe from Arachosia, this theory is based solely on linguistic evidence and spread of the Old Croatian ethnonym *xъrvatъ, which is almost certainly a borrowing into Slavic. The earliest claimed mention of the Croatian name, Horouathos, can be traced on two stone inscriptions in the Greek language and script, dating from around the year 200 AD, found in the seaport Tanais on the Azov sea, located on the Crimean peninsula (near the Black Sea). Both tablets are kept in an archaeological museum in Saint Petersburg, Russia.
----------------------------------------------

Now I would ask: Is there any mention of Persians in what today is called Croatia?

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

were completely absorbed by the Greeks....
---------------------------

But, your own quoted book seems to betray. Have a look below:


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:54 am

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Linguistically I CAN READ AND UNDERSTAND ANCIENT GREEK. Much more so than I could understand Shakespearean English which is not even half as old

-------------------------------

Linguistically you can read and understand ancient Greek because you have learned ancient Greek in curriculum of primary and secondary school...as we know in Greece is a specific subject at school 'The Ancient Greek', isn't?

“During the nineteenth century the warlords and brigand chieftains were gradually brought to heel under the authority of the Government at Athens, and in time most Greeks came to believe that they were, in fact, the same as the Ancient Greeks. The seventeen hundred years or so between the Emperor Hadrian and the outbreak of the Revolution in 1821 came to be looked upon as a regrettable, even shameful interlude in the country’s history. If in any respect Greece did not appear to be a fully mature Western European state with all the appurtenances of national culture and identity, the blame could always be put on the past and especially on the Turks. IN 1830 the German historian Fallmerayer published a theory that the Ancient Greek population had been outsted by Slavic immigrants in the early middle ages, and that the Modern Greeks were mainly of Slavic race. Fallmerayer’s ideas were looked upon as a deadly heresy, and the supposed identity of the ancient and modern Greeks became a question of intense political feeling. Innumerable measures were introduced to emphasize the link with the remote past. Ancient names were resurrected or devised for the coinage, for officers of state, for ranks in the army and navy, for the law. The streets of Athens were named after the famous and obscure men of antiquity whose names have been handed down. It became customary to call Greek children after ancient heroes in preference to saints. Few signs were allowed to remain in Greece to show that the country once contained a large Turkish minority. The minarets and mosques were destroyed. The acropolis of Athens was stripped of everything but its ancient remains and rendered a lifeless desert. The marvelously impressive Frankish tower which had stood at the entrance to the Acropolis for hundreds of years was knocked down without regret. An interesting structure on the top of the pillars of the temple of Olumpian Zeus, apparently the hermitage of some Byzantine stylite, was removed as being non-ancient and therefore not respectable. Only shortage of money prevented the Pantheon from being ‘restored’ and rebuilt as part of the campaign to emphasize the alleged continuity of the Hellenic race. The Greek language is one of the undeniable links between Ancient and Modern Greece, representing a largely unbroken tradition. But that was no considered enough. The modern Greeks must learn to speak the language of Pericles, or if that seemed too difficult, at least a language purged of foreign accretions, with the ancient words repleacing the modern and a simplified ancient grammar. Generations of hapless school children were unsuccessfully inculated with different versions of ‘purified’ Greek*.
Attempts to replace the unwidely purified versions used in literature and for official purposes with the ordinary speech of the people, known as demotic, were regarded as blows directed against the feeble unity of the country and its life-giving national myth. There were riots in Athens following the publication in 1902 of a demotic version of the New Testament. Those who advocated the abandonment of the unequal struggle to popularize the pure language have been accused at various times of being traitors to the country and to the Church, dreemasons, and tools of the Panslavists. (…)In the twentieth century the battle for a more general use of demotic seemed to have been almost won when the Colonels, noone of whom is personally at home with the pure language, renewed the attempt to ‘correct’ the speech of the whole nation. In innumerable ways the life, culture, and politics of Modern Greece are still profoundly influenced by the men who inhabited the country in the ancient times.”
(~That Greece might still be Free~William St.Clair, 1972, page 350-352)

However, I would like to test your understanding of ancient Greek! Are you able to translate this text:



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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:55 am

Originally posted by geo

And at last, give back some answers! You are beginning to act like a skopjan.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
geo I've responded to you but the response is not approved yet. This damned 'filter' does not allow me to give quickly my answers.

Firstly, I want to know what is this 'act like a skopjan'?
Secondly, what do you mean with 'skopian'? To whom you are refer as 'skopian'?

This notion is wrongly used by Greeks to call the Slavo-Bulgarians of FyrMacedonia. 'Skopian' mean inhabitants of Shkup (ancient Scup, the capital of Dardania; later of Vilayet of Kosova). The city of Shkup (not in Bulgarian/Serbian pronounce as Skopje) is inhabited largely by the Albanians. So, I am very sensitive when Greeks misunderstand the meaning of 'Shkupjan'. The demonym 'Shkupjan' mean Albanian inhabitant of Shkup. 'Shkupjan' has nothing in share with Bulgarian, Serbian or whatsoever slavic people.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:05 am

Originally posted by geo

Now Athena the goddess cannot be a 'promised city', can she. Nor was she 'promised' to anyone as far as the greek mythology knows... she was a virgin goddess... but then again, albanian ultranationalists may know more about Athena than Greek Mythology does
-------------------------------------

Originally posted by geo

Athens (the city) was named after Athena (the goddess), when she won the contest versus Poseidon and so on ... I'm sure you know the myth (not!)
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First of all, I am so sorry I've leave you without response. Seriously, the problem was the 'filter' (as you said) because it does not allow to leave freely comments. As a result, most of cases, the responses does not come in time.
About the above questions:



Allow me to give some more detailed infos:
As you see from the given examples, 'E thënë' mean 'saying' or 'said' in the past. The Gheg dialect has the phenomenon of shortening the names, for instance 'Asht' (Është in standard Albanian mean 'is') could be contracted simply in 'A' (i.e the short trait of Asht). So, Athena (Athēnâ = A tha - Is said or 'says') because as a goddess, she was imagined as God of wisdom, war, strategy, industry, justice and skill.Taking into consideration these ascriptions, the Goddess 'Athena' as a 'decisive' factor in determining of destiny of peoples, wars, etc is explained properly in Albanian as 'A thana' or 'It is said'. For example: 'It is said to happen so' etc.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:25 am

Originally posted by geo

Saying absurdities and when confronted by evidence, disappearing in thin smoke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did not say absurdities...all what i said I've escort with references, scaned page books, etc. I am not disapperared in thin smoke. The uninterrupted avoidance of your friends force me to engage with them.

Originally posted by geo

But where are the sources of Skopje/Shkup was named Scup in antiquity?
--------------------------------------
Tell me you're kidding!? Make some basic researches at 'Uncle' google:) and you will find the answer.

Originally posted by geo
Wait a minute there AgrianSolder, read the undernote no.4 "Chaonia is called Pelasgian" on your quoted book.
-----------------------------

Mate you did not observe well (as it must be observed by a reader) the references in the end of page. On footnote nr.4 is clearly referenced Stephanus of Byzantium. Read again:

http://books.google.com/books?id=CSatY6CEYuYC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=chaonia+as+pelasgian&source=bl&ots=uZRLWJh6ee&sig=F1edZwgbNSR1WjXf2gyWfNwdNpE&hl=en&ei=CY02S8HNDYbH_gac6a31CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=chaonia%20as%20pelasgian&f=false

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:29 am


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:58 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Linguistically I CAN READ AND UNDERSTAND ANCIENT GREEK. Much more so than I could understand Shakespearean English which is not even half as old

I did, that's funny because I never went to school in Greece!

My only formal Greek language education was St Demetrios Greek School on Saturday mornings from 8AM-12PM until I was 12 years old..... You really thing they taught us ancient Greek!

I'll tell you the words that look familiar to me.. agian mind you I have little formal Greek education....

Do you see that I was correct when i called you DEEP CONTRADICTION! Firstly, you swelled that you can read and understand fluently ancient Greek. Later you give up, saying that your only formal Greek education was St.Demetrios.

Originally posted by chicagogergoe

I'll tell you the words that look familiar to me.. agian mind you I have little formal Greek education....

Koreas maybe means "top"
fulakes means prisons
dumosiogrfides maybe means "to report"
eggys maybe means "there"
orou means "mountain top"
sunelaban means "took hold of"
autai means "those"
men means ""with"
tounton means "that" or "this"
----------------------------------

Do you realize that 'Linguistically I CAN READ AND UNDERSTAND ANCIENT GREEK' and 'maybe this means' is entirely contradiction, don't you?

All of your assumptions are wrong. Because the correct translation must be as below:

koreas--- Korea
fylakes--- border guards
demosgrafides-- journalists
engjys-- close, near
orou--of border
synelaban--adjacent
autai---ourself(feminine)
men---dmth in truth, indeed

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:09 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

and the Chaonians were part of Epirus, and spoke Greek, which was the fatherst north Pelasgians were identified....... NOT Illyria, and Albanian speakers were not present there 2000 years ago.... This region just so happens to have people speaking Greek there today as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well buddy, but you asked me to bring out any evidence shows Pelasgians in what is today Albania.

See your original questions:

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Do you see any Pelasgians in what is now Albania??
-------------------------------------

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Why were the Pelasgians NEVER mentioned in what is known as being Albanian speaking lands??
-------------------------------------

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

You did not read the Cambridge material! Look at the last paragraph and what it states about the Chaonians....
---------------------------------
Here isn't proper thread to debating for ethnicity of Chaonians. I guess there is another thread dedicated for them. I would be glad if we talk for this issue on specific thread. Read the Cambridge material!!!! hahahahahh
Cambridge material! You're trying to hide the name of author beyond 'University of Cambridge' in order to get some prestige in eyes of others. The author of this material is Nicholas G. Hammond, isn't?

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

I asked you to find me a source during AFTER the Hellenistic or during the late Roman and into Byzantine times that Pelasgians lived and spoke their own language
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The sources for Pelasgians are a few even before Hellenistic age. But can you find just a single proof that Pelasgians (who were scattered everywhere in 'Barbarian land') are Hellenized?

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:39 am


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