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 Pergjigjjje ne tema historike

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:24 pm

Alan Cameron raises two important conclusions:
i) 'Aspetos' is a patronym (as is it proofed by a fragmentary poem found on papayrus
ii) 'Aspetos' like Prometheus is a man's name

What's wrong with Greek explanation versions?

Finally, 'unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless' cannot be attested neither as patronym nor as man's name, because it does not make sense to have patronyms like this: 'unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless' or even worst as man's name.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:30 pm

Name Eperios or Epeiros can only be explained using the Albanian language. The meaning of the term is "something that is s deed, above, beyond "(compared to Greece). Homer knows only the name of Thesprotia, the name that replaced Pelasgia (Herodotus II, 56).



Indeed, according to some ancient authors, Epirus with Pelasgiotide were the Pelasgian Argo (Argo is the eponym of the city of Argos).

The city of Thesprotia, called Dodona was the seat of the sacred place that the Pelasgians were dedicated to Zeus and Dodoneo Pelasgians. Here is the prayer that Achilles speaks to Zeus (Iliad XVI, 236 - 237):

"Lord Zeus, Dodoneo, Pelasgians, who live far away, at Dodona, kingdoms from evil and storms around the Selli live, your interpreters, who never washed their feet, and sleep on the floor; once listened as the voice of my prayer, give me glory, much punisti the Achaean army;



This paragraph, inexplicably gone unnoticed by many scholars, is one of the largest and lightest of the Homeric poems and is doubly significant.

First of all because Homer himself recognizes Pelasgian the origin of Achilles and the states freely. Even Zeus himself, god Pelasgian, Achilles would defend itself against the threat Achaean army.

The second issue sees Homer Pelasgian articulate the genesis of religion, which later with small variations, will become the religion of the Greeks.

The name of Achilles is explained referring to the Albanian language, Aspeitos word that comes from the root A'shpeit which translates as the fast, fast in the language of the Pelasgians, and then in Albanian. The Greeks explained the name of Achilles using the expression the great beyond description, (see Plutarch, Pyrrhos i, 3) or simply: the big, full, excellent. However, this interpretation does not coincide with the Greek names that Homer uses in reference to Achilles.

The same thing happens if we consider another name given to Achilles Achilleys, the Greeks translated the term with no lips. Latter name Achilles explains much better through the Albanian language: Aq i Lehto (so light, fast). In any way we see the question of the name of Achilles, the Albanian language is infallible in the explanation.

Thanks to the Albanian language explains perfectly the name of Ulysses, which means traveler (Udhësi).

Therefore the names of the two most popular heroes in the Homeric poems, the Iliad Achilles and Odysseus in the Odyssey, can be explained well using the Albanian language.

In the two poems cited, the author claims to have found 58 citations related to Achilles, among which 18 relate to the concept of speed: swift-footed Achilles, Achilles with light feet, tireless, and the concept of divine occurs 11 times, 25 recurrences show the names that have to do with his tribe and his relatives: son of Peleus, the son of Peleus, and finally, 4 other names that are not relevant.

The name of Achilles, his religion and its place in the hierarchy of deities (the son of the goddess Thetis, whose name is Pelasgians and in Albanian means sea, det) clearly show us the origin Pelasgians. Here's what he says Plutarch (life of Pyrrhus 1 / 3):

'From there [holy site of Dodona, the land of Molossi, the reign of his son Neoptolemus] Achilles was welcomed as a god in Epirus, where the language of the place took the name of Aspetos.

Plutarch was well aware that the inhabitants of the lands of Molossi or Thesprotia, or the dodonei, spoke a language other than Greek, speak the local language.

based on the book GRECE (MYCENIENS = PELASGES) ou la solution d'une enigme author Mathieu Aref



Sorry, if English isn't proper, because I translated through google translator from Italian. Here is the link:

http://eltonvarfi.blogspot.com/2009/10/achille.html

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:56 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Does Strabo use the word pleq?
-----------------------------
Are you mentally challenged? The words does not stands constant for centuries. They did evolve according to phonetic rules, etc but in most of cases, their root stands constant from later composites.

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Can you find me even one ancient source that ties the Epirotes with the Illyrians either ethnically or linguistically?

With a lot of pleasure I'll present one ancient source that ties Epirotes with the Illyrians either ethnically, linguistically and culturally :

“The Amphilochians are Epeirotes; and so are the peoples who are situated above them and border on the Illyrian mountains, inhabiting a rugged country — I mean the Molossi, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei, the Orestae, and also the Paroraei and the Atintanes, some of them being nearer to the Macedonians and others to the Ionian Gulf. It is said that Orestes once took possession of Orestias — when in exile on account of the murder of his mother — and left the country bearing his name; and that he also founded a city and called it Argos Oresticum. But the Illyrian tribes which are near the southern part of the mountainous country and those which are above the Ionian Gulf are intermingled with these peoples; for above Epidamnus and Apollonia as far as the Ceraunian Mountains dwell the Bylliones, the Taulantii, the Parthini, and the Brygi.
(…) Then, because one tribe or another was always getting the mastery over others, they all ended in the Macedonian empire, except a few who dwelt above the Ionian Gulf. And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar, although, they add, some speak both languages.”
(~Strabo, Geography, Book VII, Chapter 7)

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

When were the Chaonians ever called Illyrian? When were the Molossians or Thesprotians ever called Illyrians!
--------------------------------------------------
Indeed funny...This is a clear manifestation of your wide acknowledge about the ancient peoples...

I. Ἰλλυριοὺς Ἕλληνες ἡγοῦνται τοὺς ὑπέρ τε Μακεδονίαν καὶ Θρᾴκην ἀπὸ Χαόνων καὶ Θεσπρωτῶν ἐπὶ ποταμὸν Ἴστρον.
APPIAN, The Foreign Wars ( The Illyrian Wars) Ill. 1.1

I'd like your opinion why Appian listed both Thesprotians and Chaonians on Illyria's land? I guess your answer before you open mouth...you will say that Appian intended that Illyria lie from Istri river till the northern boundaries of Chaones...but if is so, then Appian did not need to mention Thesprotians, who dwells the lands south of Chaonia.

The Illyrians and Thracians proper all tattooed, as did the ancient Mycenians; there is evidence to show that there was a large Illyrian element in Epirus, where, as we saw above (p.94), there were many tribes which called themselves Pelasgian…We have seen that there was no sharp line between the speech of Illyrians and Thesprotians or Thessalians|

http://books.google.com/books?id=kXA...eneans&f=false

From ancient times the mountains of Epirus and Illyria had been inhabited by Albanians

http://books.google.com/books?client...-8&sa=N&tab=wp

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:58 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

We have Polybius who included the Epirotes as part of the people of Greece!
-----------------------------------------------
It is true that Poybius did include Epirotes as part of the people of Greece, but do not forget that he clearly distinguish Epirotes from Greek.

The Epirotes were thus unexpectedly preserved: but so far from trying to retaliate on those who had wronged them, or expressing gratitude to those who had come to their relief, they sent ambassadors in conjunction with the Acarnanians to Queen Teuta, and made a treaty with the Illyrians, in virtue of which they engaged henceforth to co-operate with them and against the Achaean and Aetolian leagues. All which proceedings showed conclusively the levity of their conduct towards men who had stood their friends, as well as an originally shortsighted policy in regard to their own interests.
http://old.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...34%3Aid%3Db2c6

What does indicate these proofs for you? Does indicate hellenism of Epirots?

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:02 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge
Who the hell do you have.
--------------------------------------------
Let's start with Thucydidies:

The Hellenic troops with him consisted of the Ambraciots, Leucadians, and Anactorians, and the thousand Peloponnesians with whom he came; the barbarian of a thousand Chaonians, who, belonging to a nation that has no king, were led by Photius and Nicanor, the two members of the royal family to whom the chieftainship for that year had been confided. With the Chaonians came also some Thesprotians, like them without a king, [6] some Molossians and Atintanians led by Sabylinthus, the guardian of king Tharyps who was still a minor, and some Paravaeans, under their King Oroedus, accompanied by a thousand Orestians, subjects of King Antiochus and placed by him under the command of Oroedus. [7] There were also a thousand Macedonians sent by Perdiccas without the knowledge of the Athenians, but they arrived too late.


καὶ αὐτῷ παρῆσαν Ἑλλήνων μὲν Ἀμπρακιῶται καὶ Λευκάδιοι καὶ Ἀνακτόριοι καὶ οὓς αὐτὸς ἔχων ἦλθε χίλιοι Πελοποννησίων, βάρβαροι δὲ Χάονες χίλιοι ἀβασίλευτοι, ὧν ἡγοῦντο ἐπετησίῳ προστατείᾳ ἐκ τοῦ ἀρχικοῦ γένους Φώτιος καὶ Νικάνωρ. ξυνεστρατεύοντο δὲ μετὰ Χαόνων καὶ Θεσπρωτοὶ ἀβασίλευτοι. [6] Μολοσσοὺς* δὲ ἦγε καὶ Ἀτιντᾶνας* Σαβύλινθος ἐπίτροπος ὢν Θάρυπος τοῦ βασιλέως ἔτι παιδὸς ὄντος, καὶ Παραυαίους Ὄροιδος βασιλεύων. Ὀρέσται δὲ χίλιοι, ὧν ἐβασίλευεν Ἀντίοχος+, μετὰ Παραυαίων ξυνεστρατεύοντο Ὀροίδῳ* Ἀντιόχου ἐπιτρέψαντος. [7] ἔπεμψε δὲ καὶ Περδίκκας κρύφα τῶν Ἀθηναίων χιλίους Μακεδόνων, οἳ ὕστερον ἦλθον

Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War 2.80.1

Here we have Strabo:

These alone, then, of all the tribes that are marked off by the Ister and by the Illyrian and Thracian mountains, deserve to be mentioned, occupying as they do the whole of the Adriatic seaboard beginning at the recess, and also the seaboard that is called "the left parts of the Pontus," and extends from the Ister River as far as Byzantium. But there remain to be described the southerly parts of the aforesaid mountainous country and next thereafter the districts that are situated below them, among which are both Greece and the adjacent barbarian country as far as the mountains. Now Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians, if one reasons from the traditions themselves: Pelops brought over peoples from Phrygia to the Peloponnesus that received its name from him; and Danaüs from Egypt; whereas the Dryopes, the Caucones, the Pelasgi, the Leleges, and other such peoples, apportioned among themselves the parts that are inside the isthmus — and also the parts outside, for Attica was once held by the Thracians who came with Eumolpus, Daulis in Phocis by Tereus, Cadmeia by the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and Boeotia itself by the Aones and Temmices and Hyantes. According to Pindar, there was a time when the Boeotian tribe was called "Syes." Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names — Cecrops, Codrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians — Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes — Epeirotic tribes.
Strabo Geography Book VII, Chapter 7, 1

Ἑκαταῖος μὲν οὖν ὁ Μιλήσιος περὶ τῆς Πελοποννήσου φησὶν διότι πρὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ᾤκησαν αὐτὴν βάρβαροι. σχεδὸν δέ τι καὶ ἡ σύμπασα Ἑλλὰς κατοικία βαρβάρων ὑπῆρξε τὸ παλαιόν, ἀπ' αὐτῶν λογιζομένοις τῶν μνημονευομένων, Πέλοπος μὲν ἐκ τῆς Φρυγίας ἐπαγαγομένου λαοὺς εἰς τὴν ἀπ' αὐτοῦ κληθεῖσαν Πελοπόννησον, Δαναοῦ δὲ ἐξ Αἰγύπτου, Δρυόπων τε καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πελασγῶν καὶ Λελέγων καὶ ἄλλων τοιούτων κατανειμαμένων τὰ ἐντὸς Ἰσθμοῦ καὶ τὰ ἐκτὸς δέ· τὴν μὲν γὰρ Ἀττικὴν οἱ μετὰ Εὐμόλπου Θρᾷκες ἔσχον, τῆς δὲ Φωκίδος τὴν Δαυλίδα Τηρεύς, τὴν δὲ Καδμείαν οἱ μετὰ Κάδμου Φοίνικες, αὐτὴν δὲ τὴν Βοιωτίαν Ἄονες καὶ Τέμμικες καὶ Ὕαντες· ὡς δὲ Πίνδαρός φησιν,
ἦν ὅτε σύας Βοιώτιον ἔθνος ἔνεπον.
καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ὀνομάτων δὲ ἐνίων τὸ βάρβαρον ἐμφαίνεται, Κέκροψ καὶ Κόδρος καὶ Ἄικλος καὶ Κόθος καὶ Δρύμας καὶ Κρίνακος. οἱ δὲ Θρᾷκες καὶ Ἰλλυριοὶ καὶ Ἠπειρῶται καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἐν πλευραῖς εἰσιν· ἔτι μέντοι μᾶλλον πρότερον ἢ νῦν, ὅπου γε καὶ τῆς ἐν τῷ παρόντι Ἑλλάδος ἀναντιλέκτως οὔσης τὴν πολλὴν οἱ βάρβαροι ἔχουσι, Μακεδονίαν μὲν Θρᾷκες καί τινα μέρη τῆς Θετταλίας, Ἀκαρνανίας δὲ καὶ Αἰτωλίας τἆ ἄνω Θεσπρωτοὶ καὶ Κασσωπαῖοι καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ Μολοττοὶ καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες, Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:11 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Your maps are worthless to the conversation on the ancient ethnicity of the Epirotes.
-----------------------------------------------------
That's the answer of a Greek from Diaspora, who has not a single map showing the allegedly 'Hellenic' character. Well, if you don't accept these maps, I'll post an another map for ancient Epirus. Please, do not cry:



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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:14 pm

This is the last time I make polemics with you because you does not deserve. 90% of your posts are full of insults, scoldings and hooliganism speech against my personality.

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:00 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:34 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Funny if Strabo meant that The people between Macedonia and Corfu were all like Illyrians (spoke, dressed, and had their costums) then why did Alexander the Epirote have to dress HIS MEN in Illyrian garb to trick them??
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This quote cannot serve as a proof that Illyrian traditional dress was different from Epirotic one. Now, if we start by this kind of logic, then the Macedonian traditional dress was also different from Epirotic one:

Several of these Pyrrhus himself sent privately, pretending to be Macedonians, and saying, now was the time to be delivered from the severe government of Demetrius by coming over to Pyrrhus, a gracious prince and a lover of soldiers. By this artifice a great part of the army was in a state of excitement, and the soldiers began to look every way about inquiring for Pyrrhus. It happened he was without his helmet, till understanding they did not know him, he put it on again, and so was quickly recognized by his lofty crest and the goat's horns he wore upon it. Then the Macedonians, running to him, desired to be told his password, and some put oaken boughs upon their heads, because they saw them worn by the soldiers about him. Some persons even took the confidence to say to Demetrius himself, that he would be well advised to withdraw and lay down the government. And he, indeed, seeing the mutinous movements of the army to be only too consistent with what they said, privately got away, disguised in a broad hat and a common soldier's coat. So Pyrrhus became master of the army without fighting, and was declared King of the Macedonians.

Plutarch, Pyrrhus, 11

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:07 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:19 pm

Originally posted by kostas68
Agrian Solder,YOU ARE A COMMON FRAUD.THIS SPANISH TEXT READS "MOUNTAINEERS OF THESSALY AND ALBANIA"
-------------------------------------------------
Really? I am glad you are able to read Spanish caption...but nevertheless I am so sorry that you are so blind as you won't to see the picture and it's message. Taking into account some unimportant things (as you usually did) seem to be a Typical Greek phenomenon.


Originally posted by kostas68

AND NOT THAT THESSALIANS AND ALBANIANS ARE ONE IN THE SAME OR THAT THESSALIANS ARE DRESSED LIKE ALBANIANS AS YOU FRAUDULENTLY CLAIM.
-----------------------
That's your answer? Just this...!!!! Buddy where did I claim that Thessalians and Albanians are one, eeeee? The picture I posted up is not painted by me. All what I wish to emphasize was that Fustanella is Albanian and later Greeks borrowed from us.
Is my common fraud the adopting of Albanian Fustanella as a National garb of Greece?


An excerpt from 'The nomads of the Balkans
an account of life and customs among the Vlachs of northern Pindus'
by A.J.B. Wace and M.S. Thompson, published 1914



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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:18 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:28 pm

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

I don't know, but I'm sure the Macedonians along with there other Greeks brethren inherited the fustanella from their predecessors the Mycenaeans who wore a fustanella like kilt 1600b.c...
----------------------


chicago, I know that Mycenians wore a type of kilt, but it isn't same at all with Fustanella, as we know from archeological findings in Epirus or Illyria. Judging by images you posted here, Mycenian kilt is too short, whilst Fustanella is more long, at least long till knee.

I would like to know much more about Macedonians ancient dress? Have you any evidence what kind of dress wore Macedonians?

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:49 pm

L'Illyrie meridionale et l'Epire dans l'antiquite.II. Paris: de Bocard, 1993, Pp. 284.PNS

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:38 am


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:18 am


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:41 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:43 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:33 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:48 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:51 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:10 pm

Originally posted by Andrew

What impressed be mostly is the constant and even fanatically anti-albanian position of Ioannina.
----------------------------------------------------
Say it more correctly:
Anti-Albanian position of ruling class (being of Constantinopolitic descent after 1204) and not anti-albanian position of Janina's population.

Originally posted by Andrew

...and even prefaired to be ruled by foreign authorities such as Serbian Thomas Preljubovic

Who was called Αλβανοκτόνος (Albanitoktonos) due to genocidal massacres he did on Albanian innocent people (into castle). It is well known that he wants to clean the city of Janina from non-Byzantine people like native Albanians. What he did is called in modern terms as 'Ethnic cleansing':

Ethnic cleansing is a term that has come to be used broadly to describe all forms of ethnically-motivated violence, ranging from murder, rape, and torture to the forcible removal of populations.[1]

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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:13 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:14 pm


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MesazhTitulli: Re: Pergjigjjje ne tema historike   Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:17 pm





Albanians were proud of their native country: Epirus.

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