Pergjigjjje ne tema historike

The Balkans by Mark Mazower

What? Albanians in Elefsis, Megara and Athens? That's impossible! How come that, since even Korça, Avlona and Janina were entirely 'centers of Hellenism'??

Stop claiming 'Everything is Greek'! This is illness..No cure has been found as yet

Originally posted by Andrew


It kind of reminds me Dakas = "Dacian"
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Also, the surname of Albanian soccer Alban Bushi (representation of Albania) reminds me George Bush...just kidding...

Originally posted by Andrew

BTW can any Albanian tell us if Dako is a common albanian surname ??
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No it isn't . The only one bearing this kind of surname is Vangjush Dako ( politican
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Originally posted by Andrew

So go claim "Speedy Gonzales" as Albanian
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Go you the first...claim it as derived from *PIE root and its possible affinity with Greek. After that, bring us some other indo-europianism stuff.

Originally posted by kostas68
Η αλήθεια είναι πως κι εγώ στην αρχή αντιμετώπισα με το μαλακό αυτόν τον καραγκιόζη και του φέρθηκα πολιτισμένα,σαν... λεπτεπίλεπτος & ευγενικός Αθηναίος,αλλά μ' αυτές τις πουστιές που κάνει τώρα τελευταία με βγάζει συνέχεια έξω απ' τα ρούχα μου και γι' αυτό το γύρισα το τροπάριο και άρχισα να τον μπινελικώνω.... α λα μακεδονικά. όπως του αξίζει.Ουστ,ζαγάρ!
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Don't fool yourself! You're far away of being Athenian.

Originally posted by kostas68

So much about your illusions that the Great powers decided "to leave Janina to Albania"... they actually didn't give a shit about your demands
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Those dammed Albanian '''''illusions''''' affected all European chartographers, scholars, ethnographers, poets as they 'blatantly' equaled Epirus=Albania.
Christo Dako you were able to influenced all Europe.
We are jealous for you!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by kostas68

In the fifteenth century, when Janina was attacked by the Turks, its fortresses were defended by Albanians and not by Greeks.
Treaty of peace with Germany: Hearings before the Committee on ..., Part 1‎ - Page 1009 United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Foreign Relations
Janina wasn't defended by Constandinopolic aristocracy but from formidable Epirots or Albanians.

Whose author was again Christo Dako!
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And what does change this?
Can you provide otherwise that Jannina was defended by Constandinopolic aristocracy??

Originally posted by kostasg8
Actually he later turned into an "ardent anti-Greek" Did you read the whole of his book?
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Sure I read it.
Telling the truth does not make you 'ardent anti-Greek' .
I promise that I'll boycott him because he was 'politically uncorrect' for Greeks.
I promise to you that I'll read instead him, Nicholas J Cassavetes who was 'politicaly correct' for Greeks....

Originally posted by kostas68
Albanians were not under Ottoman yoke.Instead,they constituted themselves the Ottoman yoke
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You almost killed me!
It is not sufficient to call you psychopath!
How the f*** come that Albanians constituted themselves the Ottoman yoke.
Oh sorry darling! ....I forgot that Albanians came (from Caucasian Albania) together with Ottomans and other Arabs.
Your stupidity does make change only if Albanians were the masters and possesors of Ottoman Empire.
Read all history books. No one has claim ever that Albanians were conquers of Balkan people.
Every Balkan people has its traitors, collaborators...
Albanians were the greatest fighters against Turks.
Start from Scanderbeg..up to the recent uprisings 1911/1912. Turkish historians recognized those wars as the greatest anti-Turk revolts that happened ever in Europe.

If Albanians constituted themselves the Ottoman yoke, then can you tell me why Albanians participated into:
-Romanian Revolution
-Serbian revolts (they took part under 'Epirots' name)

There is no need to mention 1820-30 revolts in Morea and Peleoponessus.
How strange?

I read it! But, in this book we also read:

The 'Greeks' of Instambul benefited the most by Turks.

The Greek establishment

Greek life did not end when the Ottoman Turks took Constantinople in 1453. When the Ottomans imposed the millet system, the Greeks began with some obvious advantages relative to other Balkan Christians and added others as time went by.

Greek Orthodox clergy controlled the Orthodox millet. The Turks lumped together all their Balkan Christian subjects, Greek or Slav. Greek clergy therefore had substantial religious, educational, administrative and legal power in the Ottoman Balkans. The "Phanar" or lighthouse district of Istanbul became the center of Ottoman Greek culture after the patriarch took up residence there, and the well-connected Greeks of that city were known as Phanariots. Orthodox culture, faith and educational systems became identified with Greek culture. Educated Orthodox Slavs were likely to become Hellenized.

Greeks also benefited from reductions in the autonomy of the non-Greek churches. For example, when Serbs assisted invading Habsburg armies in the 1600s and 1700s, Serbian bishoprics were abolished as punishment. Greeks acquired political and economic power in the Romanian districts of Wallachia and Moldavia through similar events. Until 1711, the Ottomans picked the governors or hospodars of these provinces from the local Romanian boyar class. After Romanians supported a Russian invasion in 1711, Phanariot Greeks replaced Romanians as hospodars.

Greeks held administrative roles in the central Ottoman administration itself. Greeks ran the office of the Dragoman, the head of the sultan's interpreters' service, because Muslims were discouraged from learning foreign languages. Greeks therefore participated in diplomatic negotiations and some became de facto ambassadors. At a lower administrative level, Phanariots secured most of the contracts for tax-farmers (men who bid to collect a district's taxes, and took their profits from excess revenues squeezed out of the peasants). Greeks also acted as contractors to the Ottoman court, supplying food and other services.

Such advantages slowed the Greek encounter with national identity in the modern form. Religion, not ethnic descent or language, was the first criterion for identification in the millet system. Religion, not language or residence, distinguished wealthy Orthodox Greeks from their Muslim Ottoman counterparts. Some Anatolian Greeks did not even speak the Greek language. Nor was "Greece" a definable place. Only half of the four million Greeks lived in modern mainland Greece as we know it today: the Morea, Thessaly, Epirus and Thrace. The other two million were scattered in towns along the coast of Anatolia, the Black Sea or the Mediterranean.

On the Greek mainland, Greek notables already exercised substantial local power. Because the Morea or Peloponnessus was rather poor, in 1800 only 40,000 Turks lived there among 360,000 Greeks. The Turks owned two-thirds of the land, but lived in a few cities. Large stretches of countryside had no Turkish presence at all. In those areas, Greek primates or "kodjabashis" virtually ruled themselves, meeting in regional assemblies to supervise taxation and other administrative matters. Greek militia or "armatoli" kept the peace while "klephts" or bandits flourished in the hills.

Greek shipowners in the islands enjoyed similar advantages. Greeks dominated Balkan commerce by the 1700s. Some islands paid no taxes in cash, instead contributing via the labor of sailors. As Christians, Greek traders were exempt from certain Muslim ethical and legal restraints on money-lending at interest. Greeks were permitted commercial contacts with non-believers, an awkward matter for Muslims. Turkish hostility toward Western Europeans also played into Greek hands. Tiresome regulations and occasional anti-European riots discouraged Western Europeans from coming to Turkey: instead Westerners who did business in the region used local Jews, Armenians or Greeks as agents for reasons of safety, language and convenience. Different branches of the same Greek family often operated in different cities, so that ties of kinship reduced the risks of trade.

Greeks were not merely commercial agents, but also shipowners and captains. Between 1529 and 1774 only ships under Ottoman registry could navigate in the isolated waters of the Black Sea, so Greek trade there grew without competition from the Venetians. When the 1774 Treaty of Kuchuk Kainarji opened the Turkish straits to Russian commerce, there were not enough Russian ships to meet that country's export needs: the treaty allowed Ottoman Greeks to register their ships in Russia, and so they benefitted from the new rules. Anglo-French naval warfare during the Napoleonic Wars also cleared the seas for Greek ships: most Western merchant ships found the Mediterranean too dangerous. By the 1810s there were over 600 Greek trading ships afloat, many armed with cannon because of the threat of piracy.

http://staff.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html


Take this from Misha Glenny:

Although the Greek-speakers of Constantinople may have been beneficiaries of a rich cultural tradition associated with the Byzantine Empire, a position retained also through the church during Ottoman times, years before the concept of a Greek state (which was a product of Great power politics and a concerted effort to de-stabilize the Ottomans) ever existed, 'the Greeks did not know who they were'

It was not only the resemblance, or lack of it but also the fact that 'politically speaking the Greeks were Asiatics, and all their oriental ideas, whether social or political, required to be corrected or eradicated, before they could be expected to form a civilized people upon civilized European principals'

It is a striking fact that the leading defenders of Greek liberty at this time were largely Non-Greek. Koundouriotis was descended from the Albanian invaders of Greece in the 14th century, and spoke Greek only with difficulty. His principal colleague was John Kolettis, a Vlach who had been Ali Pasha's court doctor at Ioannina. One of the few leaders who maintained resistance far to the north of the Gulf of Corinth was the Souliote ,Marko Botsaris, whose followers were largely Albanian. By a strange chance, it happened that two of the Turkish commanders-in-chief during the war, Khurshid Pasha and Muhammad Rehid Pasha (known to the Greeks as Kiutahi), were by birth Orthodox Christians, who had been converted to Islam for the sake of career in the Sultans service." (C.M. Woodhouse

Originally posted by Andrew
Now when a retard like you comes in here and says us that anybody who lives in villages is albanian ... he certainly is not going to have the "Caesar" treatment by me.
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Nobody is seeking a Cesar treatment from you, because no one is under your control. What I ask is to keep yourself under control. You can insult with rover words in anyway, but this shows your fear. You engage with me personally, in order not to deal with the arguments that I bring.

Originally posted by Andrew

If you want so much to speak and can't stop your self , go buy the ca 30 history books that I already possess and have read each more than once ... and we'll have a talk after you read them all.
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Indeed funny! You say to someone to buy and read 30 books, someone who in his personal library has 1600 books, historical, ethnographic, anthropological and literary. So the one who needs to buy books is you.
Even is I had read the '30 books' that you proposed for me to read, you will still find an excuse to oppose. I have read modern authors: Peter Green, E. Borza, then W. Heckel, etc., etc., and when debating the Greeks they say that I must read Hammond. When I read Hammond, then they said that I have not read that of Errington.

Originally posted by Andrew
You all same retards keep coming in different accounts again & again : Luboteni/Merlyn/Pelagona ... posting the same stinky shit and you dare question how I treat you ?
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With every Greek that I dispute, they mix me with someone else. Simply, it is a paranoia problem, or not? Do not know if it is necessary to bring, passport or electricity bill ...

Originally posted by Andrew
As an Imbecile Retard !!!! That's how I treat you !!!
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I do not say not to curse ... if it makes you feel good... do it ... But in the eyes of others you seem hypocritical, because if we were face to face you will certainly not dare to do such a thing. To talk what you want behind the computer screen is easy. Some use the computer to fill their mental gaps. Simply, in society they are nobody... and through computer trying to be somebody.

If I was an 'imbecile' as you call me, you will not spend so much energy against a 'imbecile'. I know that you don't even sleep ... this shows that I have more value than any one of you. All forum is mobilizing against me? This is the greatest of respect, or not?

Originally posted by Andrew


It kind of reminds me Dakas = "Dacian"
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Also, the surname of Albanian soccer Alban Bushi (representation of Albania) reminds me George Bush...just kidding...

Originally posted by Andrew

BTW can any Albanian tell us if Dako is a common albanian surname ??
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No it isn't . The only one bearing this kind of surname is Vangjush Dako ( politican
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Originally posted by Andrew
alterantive steretic ans>as + epos-"voice" >> aspetos = "unspeakable"
alterantive steretic ans>as + ekho-"hold"/"possess" >> askhetos = "one who doesn't have"
alternative steretic ans>as + pedese-"hamp" >> aspedistos = "unhampered".
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What has to do this indo-europian masturbation with Medieval Epirus?



Originally posted by Andrew

So go claim "Speedy Gonzales" as Albanian
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Go you the first...claim it as derived from *PIE root and its possible affinity with Greek. After that, bring us some other indo-europianism stuff.

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

That last image is text written by an Albanian author
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James Knowles sound very Albanian or not? Follow my advice: make a visit in a clinic of eyes and ears!!!



Originally posted by chicagogeorge

but in national sentiment duriing the end of the 19th century many were Greeks. Plus there were plenty of ethnic Greek speakers outside of Avlona and Korytsa too
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For what a national sentiment you're talking?
Indeed, if they were Greek by
feeling why did 350,000 of them flee before the Greek army when they ill^ally invaded
southern Albania in 1914, just a few months before the outbreak of the European War,
and went to starve under the olive trees of Vallona? If they were truly Greeks by
feelinff, why did the Greek army massacre so many of those who could not get away,
and wny did they devastate the whole countiv?

August Dozen, French consul and distinguished scholar visited Kortcha in 1S75.
In his report he says, in part, *'The population of Kortcha is entirely Albanian."

Originally posted by chicacogeorge
How about a German who broke it down pretty clearly for you.
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This is a view of an ignorant German whose knowledge about Epirus was very vague. I prefer to basis on P.Aravantinos in his 'Chronographia test Epeirou'. Because, he is more accurate than any German.

Originally posted by chicacogeorge
Prior to the 1400's No Albanian even knew what the Acropolis was.
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Prior to the 1850's no 'Greek' even knew what the past of 'Greece' was.
No 'Greek' even knew what the Acropolis was. To them, the glory of ancient Greece say nothing. In other hand, all western PhilHellenes saw at Albanians the model of 'ideal Greeks'. Ali Pasha by westerns was called as Pyrrhus, while the Suliote Cham Marko Boçari was nicknamed as Leonida of his time.


Originally posted by chicacogeorge

But by 1800, the Arvanites of the above mentioned areas in Central Greece were in their own words..... Greeks
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Well, I do not give a shit for conclusions of Academy of Athens. Arvanites of Central Greece could not felt themselves related to Constadinopolic Byzantines.
Arvanites of 1800 were nothing else but Albanians as God created them. Let see how Greek seem Athens:

In "Greece of the Hellenes" by Lucy M. J. Garnett on page 32 we read: "The Athenian women are neither beautiful nor well made; they have neither the physiognomy of French women, nor the full beauty of the Roman dames, nor the pale white delicacy of the Turkish women –one sees nothing in the town but ugly creatures with broad noses, flat feet and ill-formed waists. It is because Athens, twenty five years ago, was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds and nations; that explains the ugliness of the Athenian type."

How the f*** come that Central Greece was Greek, when they could not speak even a single word in Greek?

In "Greece of the Hellenes" by Lucy M. J. Garnett on page 32 we read: "The Athenian women are neither beautiful nor well made; they have neither the physiognomy of French women, nor the full beauty of the Roman dames, nor the pale white delicacy of the Turkish women –one sees nothing in the town but ugly creatures with broad noses, flat feet and ill-formed waists. It is because Athens, twenty five years ago, was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds and nations; that explains the ugliness of the Athenian type."

Originally posted by Andrew
I don't give a shit about outdated linguists
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...and this comes from an young guy claiming he know everything due to internet playings. You're neither linguist nor historian. All you can do is creation of assumptions.
If you do not give a shit about outdated Linguist, why you're based heavily at V.Georgiev:

In the 1950s the Bulgarian linguist Vladimir Georgiev published a work in which he argued that the phonology of Getae-Dacian is close to that of Albanian

So, the only one supporting supposed Dacian origin of the Albanians is Vladimir Georgiev of 1950's...and some Greek net fighters.

Originally posted by kostas68
And what exactly did the Albanians inherit from ancient Macedonians?I guess not this noble habit?
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Buddy what's wrong with you?
You believe some idiotic speculations made in Serbia televisions that 'Bush's watch was stolen'.
You biased on VIJESTI's speculation.
I do not expect this from a 'Noble Athenian'
So, listen you forger: Bush watch was not stolen. Have a look here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-1YO99zKMA&feature=related

Bush's Watch Stolen?
Watch this video very carefully; it's President Bush working the crowds in Albania. At 0.50 minutes into the clip, Bush has a watch. At 1.04 minutes into the clip, he had a watch.
The U.S. is denying that his watch was stolen:
Photographs showed Bush, surrounded by five bodyguards, putting his hands behind his back so one of the bodyguards could remove his watch.
I simply don't see that in the video. Bush's arm is out in front of him during the entire nine seconds between those stills.
Another denial:
An Albanian bodyguard who accompanied Bush in the town told The Associated Press he had seen one of his U.S. colleagues close to Bush bend down and pick up the watch.
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Originally posted by kostas68
Well,last time i checked in 17th century your folks claimed to be the descendands of Jabal-i Alhama.Was this guy related to Alexander the Great and his Macedonians as well?
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A bunch of lies! They who believed to be the descendants of Jabal-i Alhama were some Fanatic Islam sects in Elbasan. It is like some mental midgets claim themselves to be descendants of Jesus Christ.

Our National Hero, Gjergj Kastrioti in his letter addressed to Prince of Taranto wrote:

"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies."
"I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"

“Alexander the Great is generally regarded as a Macedonian Greek, but to the Albanians he is one of their forefathers, and coins issued in the reign of King Zog bear his image”
(~Myths and realities in eastern Europe~Walter Kolarz, 1972, page 33)

Originally posted by chicagogeorge
Alexander's own words... look at the foreign troops that he mentions.


Foreign:
Illyrians? Yes
Thracians? Yes
Agrians? Yes
Paeonians? Yes

Greeks? No
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You have to be joking!
Why you are so sure that those words are said by Alexander himself?

Lucius Flavius Arrianus 'Xenophon' (ca. 86 - 160), known in English as Arrian (Ἀρριανός), and Arrian of Nicomedia, was a Roman (ethnic Greek)[3] historian, public servant, a military commander and a philosopher of the 2nd-century Roman period.
Arrian was born of Greek ethnicity[4][5][6] in the coastal town of Nicomedia (present-day Izmit), the capital of the Roman province of Bithynia[7], in what is now north-western Turkey, about 70 km from Byzantium (later Constantinople, now Istanbul).
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Arrian was Greek by ethnicity and when he was talking about Illyrians, Thracians and Paeonians he judged them by Traditional Greek angle.
We are not sure that those words are said by Alexander.
How did know Arrian what said Alexander 300 years before him?
During Asiatic campaigns, old accounts afford no record of any ethnic rivalry between Illyrians, Thracians, Paeonians, Agrianes and Macedonians. All of them were the stoutest soldiers of Alexander the Great.
Whereas, there are a lot of incidents between Macedonians & Greeks.
Do you know what happened with 3000 Greeks of Bactria who were revolted against Macedonians?





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