Pergjigjjje ne tema historike

Originally posted by kostas68
Exactly as Strabo mentions that Epirotes called Achilles in their local dialect "aspetos",which is a Greek word attested in Homer:
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Can you repeat again what you said before? Where the hell Strabo exactly mention that Epirotes called Achilles as 'Aspetos'??? 'Aspetos' is never mention in Strabo's account. Don't make such mistakes!
Hammond in first sight, oppose the Illyrian origin of 'Aspetos' but he afford no evidence why is not Illyrian as well as he did not bring proofs why Aspetos is Greek word. I do not know if you read at all Hammond's point of views about Epirus, but in an article he makes known that Achilles employed the same way of burial (as were in Illyria).

Kartografi i njohur i shekullit XVII I. Lavrenberg shkruan:

"Leandri dhe Eritrea na mësojnë se Epiri sot quhet Shqipëri. Banorët e tij, sipas Leonklavit, quhen shqiptarë, ndërsa turqit i quajnë arnautllarë. Epirotët ndahen në fise të ndryshme, por që të gjithë ndryshojnë prej grekëve, si nga gjaku ashtu edhe nga gjuha".

The famous cartographer of XVII century, I.Lavreberg wrote:

"Leandro and Eritrea makes known at us that Epiri today is called Albania. According him, its inhabitants are called Albanians, whilst Turks called them as Arnauts. The Epirots are divided in many tribes, but all of them differed from Greeks, either by language and blood".

Do you think that all of these maps are products of 'Albanian Propaganda'?

Again Epirus into Albania:

Here I'd present a video providing a wide quotes from scholars about equation Albania=Epirus. Have a nice look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Agawf3IRD4

The Albanians themselves, however

Originally posted by Greek Monastiri

Population in Epirus

Sorry mate..but these maps you posted up says nothing about population of Epirus. All of them seperated obviously Epirus as well as Macedonia from Greece.

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Plutarch mentions Aspetos.... he is specific that it was in the language of Epirotes...

Sure I know...but your countryman does not know because he put Strabo instead Plutarch

"2 Among the Thesprotians and the Molossians old women are called "peliai" and old men "pelioi," as is also the case among the Macedonians; at any rate, those people call their dignitaries "peligones" (compare the "gerontes"476 among the Laconians and the Massaliotes).477 And this, it is said, is the origin of the myth about the pigeons in the Dodonaean oak-tree. "

(~Strabo Geography Book VII, Fragments 2)

Wait a minute here...Also in Albanian do we have a similar words for old man 'pleq' i.e the root 'Pel' is preserved as well in corrosponding Albanian word because:

"CHAONES. And after Illyrians, Chaonians. And Chaonia has good harbours: and the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day".

There is no text more abused by Greeks than above passage from Scylax. It is true that he listed Chaones apart from Illyrians, but this was simply geographical division not ethnic one. In other hand, there are a couple of texts who firmly distinguish Epirus bot ethnically and georaphically from Greece. The above example used by Greeks is given in truncate manner, so the conclusions draw up are entirely wrong. Let us present the whole citation:

28. CHAONES. And after Illyrians, Chaonians. And Chaonia has good harbours: and the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day.

29. KORKYRA. And by Chaonia is an island, Korkyra, and a Hellenic city in it, having three harbours by the city: of these the one is enclosed. And Korkyra belongs also to Thesprotia more than Chaonia. And I return again onto the mainland, whence I turned aside.

30. THESPROTIANS. And after Chaonia are the Thesprotian nation. And these too live in villages: and this territory also has good harbours. Here is a harbour, which has name Elaia. Into this the harbour the river Acheron emits: and there is lake Acherousia, out of which the Acheron fiver flows. And the coastal voyage of Thesprotias is a half of a day.

31. KASSOPIANS. And after Thesprotia is the nation Kassopia. And these too live in villages. And these live beside as far as into the Anaktoric gulf. And the coastal voyage of the Kassopians’ territory is a half of a day; and the Anaktoric gulf is a little less from its mouth as far as into the inner end, 120 stades. And the mouth has width 4 stades.

32. MOLOTTIA(MOLOSSIA). And after Kassopia are the Molottian nation. And these live in villages: and they come down only a little here to the sea, and largely into the interior. And the coastal voyage of Molottian territory is of 40 stades.

33. AMBRAKIA. And after Molottia, Ambrakia, a Hellenic city: and this is distant from sea 80 stades. And there is also upon the sea a fort and an enclosed harbour. From here Hellas begins to be continuous as far as Peneios river and Homolion, a city of Magnesian territory, which is beside the river. And the coastal voyage of Ambrakia is of 120 stades.



Scylax makes known that Greece begins 'as far as Peneios river and Homolion, a city of Magnesian territory'. He did not consider Epirus as Greece. The 'Greek' element according him was located only in Ambrakia and Corcyra, both Hellenic colonies. The rest of Epirus is not recorded as Greek. Read well Scylax.

"...After the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, then, come the following peoples of the Greeks: the Acarnanians, the Aetolians, and the Ozolian Locrians...
~Strabo Geography Book VIII, Chapter 1, 1

"Ephorus says that, if one begins with the western parts, Acarnania is the beginning of Greece; for, he adds, Acarnania is the first to border on the tribes of the Epeirotes. But just as Ephorus, using the sea-coast as his measuring-line, begins with Acarnania (for he decides in favour of the sea as a kind of guide in his description of places...so it is proper that I too, following the natural character of the regions, should make the sea my counsellor.
~Strabo Geography Book VIII, Chapter 1, 3

Originally posted by Chicagogeorge

As for your maps...... Silly boy....

That's your answer against a plenty of maps!!!!!!!!?

chicago do you realize that you're contradicting again yourself by quoting Procopius, don't you?

Firstly, you quoted Scylax who said that Illyrians inhabited lands till Chaonia. Whilst, Procopius embarked himself that allegedly 'Greece begin as far as Epidamnus!!!

Greek Monastiri:



Oh, common 'Greek Monastiri'...To be honestly, I am not in the mood to keep conversation with you because your sources providing nothing about 'Greekness' of Epirus. The map you just posted up is entitled 'Regions occupees par les belligerants fin avril 1913' and on its legend clearly defined Epirus as 'Ocupation grecque'. Do you know what really mean 'Ocupation'?

Belligerent military occupation occurs when the control and authority over a territory passes to a hostile army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupation

The Hague Conventions of 1907 further clarified and supplemented these customary laws. Specifically "Laws and Customs of War on Land" (Hague IV); October 18, 1907: "Section III Military Authority over the territory of the hostile State."[1] The first two articles of that section state:
Art. 42.
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.
Art. 43.
The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.

Epirus is a pure example of a region occupied by the authority of the hostile army of Greece. In fact, there were some regions peopled by Greek-speakings but the rest of Epirus wasn't such, because the mountains of Epirus, its western side (Tchamouria-Çameria/Souli), Pindus ranges as well as Florina, Kostur were peopled by all means by Albanians. At least, the map of Kipert proof this.

Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Ok and what is your comment about the Epirotes calling Achilles "Aspetos"
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Well...I'll give to you my response (which I gave to a Greek guy in another forum)...

The confusion of 'Aspetos' mentioned by Plutarch with the same one mentioned as well in 'Iliad' is a thing that I see often when I debating with Greeks. To be correct we should re-post the 'problematic' and disputed quote of Plutarch:

Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great inundation, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those
who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Others tell us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a
succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also
that name. From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus,under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these
first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and
learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides; he married Phthia, the daughter of
Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time of the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas, daughters, and
Pyrrhus, a son.

http://www.greektexts.com/library/Pl...s/eng/824.html

Let's analyze carefully the full quote:

a) Plutarch pointed out that king Tharrypas was the first who introduced 'Greek manners and learning'. Again I persist on the frequently asked question: If Epirus was the 'heart of Greece' mean that Epirotes were somehow the 'nucleus' of all Greeks. If Epirotes were being of 'central Greeks' then Plutarch would not say that 'Tharrypas' introduced 'Greek learning' on Epirus? It does not make sense to introduce 'Greek manners and learning' in the centre of all Hellenes!

b). Again if Epirotes spoke any tongue close to the Greek, then Plutarch did not need to emphasize 'the language of the country' that mean obviously a entirely different language from Greek. Achilles himself never is related in 'Iliad' with the word 'Aspetos'. The only one who called Achilles as 'Aspetos' is Plutarch. The official etymology of 'Aspetos' related with 'unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless,' is not well-attested because it contains somehow some primaries logic mistakes. Plutarch said clearly that Achilles has divine status among Epirotes; if Epirotes honored someone as 'Divine' they could not attribute this 'divine status' to someone which is 'unspeakable'.

1. Aspetos = A + Spetos; 'A' is the short trait of 'asht' (mean is in Alb.). Even in modern times, specifically in Gheg dialect is preserved a such trait short of 'Asht' in 'A'. What's about 'Spetos'. If we drop out the last suffix 'os' the word become on 'Spet' which is an earlier form of Alb. 'Shpejtë' mean 'fast, quick' because again in Gheg dialect we find an another variation from standard form of Albanian 'Shpejtë' in 'Shpetë'. Suma Summarum after this summarized explanation we come to the central point: Aspetos is transparently equivalent with Alb. 'A shpetë',
Aspetos = A shpetë mean 'He is fast/quickly'.



2. This version of explanation has a sufficient logic base since Homer like to use for Achilles the epithet as 'swift-footed' (podas ôkus), a clear indication of swiftness of every action of Achilles.

A characteristic of Homer's style is the use of epithets, as in "rosy-fingered" dawn or "swift-footed" Achilles. These epithets were metric stop-gaps as well as mnemonic devices for the aoidos (singer) — both, signs of the deep oral tradition that preceded the written codification of the Iliad and Odyssey.

Moreover, epithets in epic poetry from various Indo-European traditions may be traced to a common tradition going much deeper into prehistory. For example, the phrase approximating "everlasting glory" or "undying fame" can be found in the Homeric Greek kleos aphthiton and the Sanskrit śrávo ákşitam. They "were, in terms of historical linguistics, equivalent in phonology, accentuation, and quantity (syllable length). In other words, they are descendants from a fragment of poetic diction (reconstructable as Proto-Indo-European *klewos ņdhgwhitom) which was handed down in parallel over many centuries, in continually diverging forms, by generations of singers whose ultimate ancestors shared an archetypal repertoire of poetic formulae and narrative themes."[1]

A name plus an epithet constitute a formula which exactly fits the metric structure of the verse. The use of formulas is characteristic of ancient epic poetry.

Homer used epithets not merely to complete rhythm patterns. Epithets increase the meaning of each noun that they alter. Epithets can tell of the character’s origin, parentage, appearance or state, skill-set, position, or heroic quality. At the same time, he distinguishes between Homer’s two different types of epithets: the special and the generic. Special epithets are used exclusively for a particular character, while generic epithets are used repeatedly for a class of characters. Yet this distinction is not always clear; thus, the epithet “master of the war-cry” is used predominantly with Menelaus, yet on occasion also to describe Diomedes.[2]

****Then answered him Achilles swift of foot: "Most noble son of Atreus, Agamemnon king of men, for the gifts, to give them as it beseemeth, if so thou wilt, or to withhold, is in thy choice. But now let us bethink us of battle with all speed; this is no time to dally here with subtleties, for a great work is yet undone. Once more must Achilles be seen in the forefront of the battle, laying waste with his brazen spear the battalions of the men of Troy. Thereof let each of you think as he fighteth with his man."

http://homer.classicauthors.net/illiad/illiad19.html

When they were assembled and gathered together, among them arose and spoke swift-footed Achilles: "Son of Atreus, now I think we shall return home, beaten back again, should we even escape death, if war and pestilence alike are to ravage the Achaeans. But come, let us ask some seer or priest, or some reader of dreams—for a dream too is from Zeus—who might say why Phoebus Apollo is so angry, whether he finds fault with a vow or a hecatomb; in hope that he may accept the savour of lambs and unblemished goats, and be willing to ward off the pestilence from us."
http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomerIliad1.html